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February 02, 2006

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maryam

i would just like to add that this is not just going on in iran, what about in france were women are not alowed to wear the head scarf?

quince

Headscarves are tacky and frumpy. The scarf flatters no woman unless draped artfully about the neck and shoulders, complementing rather than covering the hair. The French know best in these matters, as always.

Muslim women, if this is your reference, contribute nothing aesthetic whatsoever to the world of fashion in their sad black sacks.

UmmZaid

//Muslim women, if this is your reference, contribute nothing aesthetic whatsoever to the world of fashion in their sad black sacks.//

Perhaps Muslim women who wear hijab are concerned with things bigger than fashion and looking good to a bigot like yourself. The post is bigoted, actually, calling upon tried and true stereotypes and hatred of women in the veil. If she rejected the veil, she must have been right and good, and so must her sister. They couldn't possibly be right. Likewise, those of us who are tired of seeing Muslim women in veil objectified to the point where people think nothing of disrespecting us myriad ways, including constantly linking our hijab to nudity and sex, are "Islamists." Pht. If this is the "importance" of fashion, I'm glad I'm not important.

boudica, baby

I do, in part, agree with UmmZaid but not entirely. I think relating the actions of these women back to fashion (a luxurious frivolity) belittles and marginalises what they are trying to acomplish.

The veil is symbolic. It is clothing, not fashion.

xxB

quince

Permitting one's identity to be symbolically blotted out is indeed is not fashion. It is not aesthetically pleasing. It is not beauty. It is not art.

The decision make oneself deliberately ugly under an unflattering black sheet is worthy of derision to a person who appreciates beauty, the worth of the individual, and personal freedom. I understand that the men of this religious culture will force the women to comply, but I am don't understand how they are able to trick some one the women into thinking it's for their own good.

Black sheets over womens' heads and faces may be just "clothes", but their symbolism is ugly as well.

You may fling around names like "bigot", but I recoil in horror at the idea of your people that I or my daughters should also hide our identities and cover up our faces to "protect" ourselves from men. What's next after the symbolic destruction of the one's face from the public eye...perhaps a mandatory male escort when leaving the house? A clitorectomy? A bloody sheet in the window? How demeaning.

Rather, we teach our sons good manners and self-control, and and we enjoy our own beauty among men who view us as their human equals who are welcome in the public sphere as they are----men would not and could not compel us to hide our identities and forcibly cloak us in a way that the men are not required to be cloaked.

You system is unfair to women, and it is ugly to behold on many levels.

clair

by the sound of it, i dont think you understand anything, just because you find it ugly does it mean its bad? i find that stipes are ugly maybe people should stop wearing those!? its deppresing to see that there are people out there with such vews!!

quince

Do you find clitorectomy, being banned from leaving your house without a male relative, needing 4 male witnesses to verify a woman's accusation of rape in Muslim culture....not bad? Not depressing?

clair

muslim culture does not exist!!!! could this be arab culture or pakistani culture you are taking about, islam is a religion not a culture!!

quince

If you are required by law to belong to a certain religion (try being anything but Muslim in Saudi Arabia---you can't! It's against the law to be a Christain or Jew, so there are none!), then that religion and that culture are one and the same. Are you trying to tell me that there is a culture in Arab countries or Pakistan that is not permeated from the ground up by (often mandatory) Islam?

quince

Also... you did not answer my question, but rather tried to deflect it with semantics. Do you think these things that they do in Muslim society to women are acceptable and just?

boudica of suburbia

Oh fuck off "Quince". There you go with the "muslim culture" again when clearly you don't have a fucking clue. And whats this bollocks about "your culture"? My culture? I live in the UK, Britain, England. Perhaps you're a little confused.

Muslim women in the UK can choose to wear the burka, as can women in, for example Iran.

Yes, Islam has an unhealthy attitude towards wmoen but I think its pompous to assume that "Islamic" societies/cultures/whatever (in which I will assume you are talking about the middle-east) are the only ones in which women are mistreated and marginalised. I mean what about the Geishas, what about domestic violence, lower pay, sexist attitudes, the clitorectomies in religions other than Islam(with those you refer to being a christian-'news' guesstimate.) Sexist attitudes prevail in all countries. I think you are believing a little too much of the bullshit you're fed. Yes, the attitudes are horrific but have a look around you, its going on everywhere.

quince

In Islamic Middle Eastern countries, the oppression of women is codified into law.

The problem is not that unequal treatment of women happens occasionally elsewhere in the world, but that it is accepted as normal, good, and right by the Middle Eastern Muslim leaders. Doesn't Mohammed say in the Koran that women are not equal to men? That men should beat their "disobedient" wives? That's why I wipe my ass this religion's words.

Codifying oppression of women into law is NOT done in the UK, or the US, or Candada or Australia, unless they have started permitting Sharia courts and laws there as some Muslim immigrants would wish, in order to fully express their faith by treating women different than men in the courtroom as well as in their homes.

And to Muslims, I call it "your culture" because its ideas and values are very alien to mine. The people who founded and run the Western country I live in, and those that my ancestors lived in may have not had great ideas all of the time but they NEVER held such ideas about black sheets over the womens' faces and cutting out their clitorises. I'm sure it's nothing to be proud of, but it's your culture's ideas. They are very easily identifiable as a distinct set of concepts, not accepted in Western countries but widely promulgated in Middle Eastern countries with Muslim leadership, whose political and religious views are not in the least separated...That's a culture, folks.

A religion that tells you how to live every facet of your life, not just how to interact with other people and how to think about moral problems, but how to dress, brush your teeth, and wash your feet after you take a shit *is* a culture.

That kind of intrusive religion doesn't leave you some sort of "non-Muslim" secular identity, sorry---you're just plain wrong.

If you feel that you have one, living in the UK, that's just because you're not being a truly devout Muslim. Try acting the way you do in any Middle Eastern Muslim country as a woman who can CHOOSE whether to wear a scarf, or drive a car, or leave her home unescorted, or have sex if she feels like it.

Your freedom is just being borrowed from the Western culture you don't really fit into, and is not compatible with your religion and your race's culture.

quince

And I'm sorry you don't like "Quince", but that's my name. What shall I call you, Aisha perhaps?

Speaking of Aisha, how old was she when your Mohammed first fucked her?

I've read from various sources that she was as young as 6 years old or as old as nine. Times change, but never so much that a 50-something year old man sticking his dick in a 6-year-old or even a 9-year-old little girl isn't a clear abomination.

clair

this is my last comment on this issue.
quince you rascist bitch. go to fucking hell were you belong!!!!
and i know you will!!!

jo

if i went to saudi arabia i would respect their culture and put on a head scarf, therefore if an arab lady comes to live in britain she should respect our way of life. if she doesn't like it then go back to her country of origin where 'the veil' is normality. some may think this is racist but if my post was written by an arab lady about a white lady it wouldn't be considered so.

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